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Experience Description In October of 2020 I caught Covid. I caught it from taking care of my husband who had I;, who caught it from taking care of his father who had it. His father ended up in the hospital and passed away. My husband ended up in the hospital and almost passed away. I am so thankful he didn't. But on this particular day I was feeling very weak and sick and was lying on the bed feeling like I was passing out. I felt myself slipping away and I thought to myself that if I'm feeling this bad then my husband, who was in the den and was sicker than I was, could be feeling worse and may have even passed away, so I went to get up off the bed. But when I did my feet didn't touch the floor. I started walking but my feet were not touching the floor! This was so confusing to me but I kept walking and a voice, or words were spoken to me somehow, from behind me, right behind my right shoulder. They said 'it's the prayers of the saints holding you up'. I know this doesn't make sense now but I started repeating this because at the time it made sense. I walked around the corner from my bedroom and it was as though my right eye pealed back and I was able to see into this other place, this other world, this other realm, bathed in this glorious light. I now know that this was more of a curtain or a veil and not my actual eye pealing back but at the time it seemed like my right eye was pealing back and I was slowly able to see through the walls in my house. Where there were once walls there were now these 'beings'. And I could see with my left eye! I can't see with my left eye (I have blindness in my left eye). But I could see these two ugly creatures to my left crouched down in darkness where there was once a bench up against a wall. They were crouching and turned to the right looking at someone behind me. They were so ugly and their skin was like reptilian and amphibian and dark in color. They had legs and arms and long fingernails and long teeth but I really didn't look at them too long. I turned to my right and there was this being--this angel protector-- right there! He was looking down at me. He was very big, tall, taller than the roof of my house but the roof of my house was not there anymore. He was a warrior. And there were four more like him behind him where the wall of my house should have been. He had a helmet on. The helmet was very fitted to his head and a beautiful brownish, bronze color. His eyes were very caring, the way they were looking at me. He was saying--'are you okay, you're okay, we're making sure you're okay' words like that were said to me somehow without him actually speaking them. They were awesome, these angels. The way they stood there. They didn't have swords drawn and I didn't see wings but they were wearing beautiful armor that looked perfect and royal and the way they stood--they were not afraid of anything and they were not angry either. But they sure were keeping those ugly creatures from hurting me and my family. They didn't even have to look at those creatures and those creatures were just all crouching and snarling and not able to move. The creatures were in the shadows, still in the darkness. The angel closest to me, the one that had been right at my right shoulder the whole time made close eye contact with me at one time and there was this joy in his eyes and almost a playfulness. It was like he knew me. He was youthful but very strong and I could tell just by looking at him that he belonged to the King. But what was over everything, and what I can't stop thinking about, is the light. It is the most beautiful light I have ever seen--white and golden at the same time, clear and iridescent--like looking through a dragonfly's wing. Pure and holy and perfect. The light was alive and it was love and it was loving. And I wanted to dwell in it forever. And the light is called Glory. It is Heavenly Father. He is the Father of Glory. And this light is right there, right through the veil, open the curtain and slip inside and it's all around. But I can't slip through that curtain anymore like I did on that day. So I search for this light always. In the sunrises and the sunsets. In sun showers. In plays of light on water. I chase the light and I'm a bit obsessed about it. But I know it's there even if I can't see it like I did on that day. And there was this large group of people--I was told they were saints and they were my heart family waiting for me--and they were all in the light. And it was so lovely. They were all wearing these long robes of pure, fine linen. I touched the linen from one of them and it was not too heavy and not too light and the light was all in it. The robes were not masculine and not feminine but royal-like. Perfect. Heavenly. And they were special people because they were wearing the robes or the robes showed that they were special people. I may not be explaining it right. There was this one young woman that came up to me at one point. She was smaller than I was and she had soft, light brown curls. Her hands were so familiar but they were younger than my Mimi's. I wanted it to be my Mimi. She was my favorite person in the whole world at one time in my life. She touched my forehead very lightly and I felt love. Maybe it was her. I really want it to be her. But I just don't know. But those people that were there they were all standing there watching. They were standing, perfectly spaced, not equally spaced, but perfectly spaced. Some were in twos and some single. But they were not grouped together like we would be here. It was spaced so they could easily see what was happening. They were peacefully watching and they all knew me and loved me but I didn't stop and stay long enough to see them and look at their faces. I wish I would have stayed. I wish I would have looked. But I was so worried about my husband that I didn't stay or linger. But there are still so many things, so many events stacked up on top of each other! Events and images that I am still sifting through because there was No time there, not like there is here. It wasn't chronological. It stood still and it happened at once. It's so hard to explain. So many things are still jumbled up. So many things that happened and I'm still trying to sift through and make sense. Colors that I've never seen that I'm trying to find here but I can't. I try to draw or paint what I saw but it's so inadequate and does not even come close. There was this tree in the distance that seemed so far away but I knew that I wanted to go to that tree. I felt that Jesus was there and I needed to see Him and talk to Him. I don't remember walking to the tree but I remember being at the tree. Jesus was big and I was child size compared to Him. He was in front of the tree, sitting, and I was standing in front of Him. He was holding my hands. I was telling Him so many things but I can't remember all of the things I was telling Him. He was telling me that it was okay. I remember Him making it all okay. He loves me. He sees me as His little child. I'm 52 years old and He sees me as a little child. And I am now having a difficult time looking at myself as a 52 year old woman. I now see myself as a young girl because Heavenly Father and Jesus see me as a little child. They see all of us as little children! We are so hard on ourselves sometimes. Yes, there's evil in the world but if we are in the light and we are loving why are we so hard on ourselves? Just keep loving and keep being kind. Know that in the spirit realm you are light. You are walking in light and that light is so bright. I saw that light. It was amazing and beautiful. I saw the shadows and the darkness too--it's there but it's not so difficult to be walking in the light. And we have protectors! And a cheering squad. I saw it and it was more real than this life. When I came back to this realm, everything was shadowy compared to the light in the other realm. It's more real there than it is here but what we do here really matters. I remembered this experience so much easier and more vividly than the events around it--the things that happened before and after. I wish I could remember the exact day of the week and the exact time of the day. I do remember it was night outside but when I walked around the corner there was light everywhere. People have asked me what color the angels were. Everything there was in the light. The light was flowing through everything. They were a pure color and a color of light but they were not glowing. They resembled a man but they were not humans. There was this one color that I am really hung up on and have been trying to find here and the closest I have found is the color of aged olive wood that has been polished. Maybe also the color of aged bronze refined by fire. But I'm not sure if that is just the color of their armor. Their armor was that color. Jesus was wearing a long white robe. It was kind of heavy and reached his feet. He was wearing sandals. They were interesting and I've never seen sandals like that before. They were beautifully made. He was wearing two types of sashes. One was a bright blue color and one was a yellow. Everything was made in a fine material, not fine as in thin but fine as in richly made. Nothing was old. Everything was new and royal. Fitting of a king. This experience has changed me. I am forever changed. I have seen the Father's glory. I have slipped through the veil and I have seen another realm which is right here alongside us all the time. We have angel protectors, we have a heart family, we have a king and Heavenly Father. But there's also darkness and shadows and evil and Satan's guys. I saw them too. They were No threat to me because I was in the light. I vacillate between wanting to tell everyone and not wanting to tell anyone. People look at me like I'm crazy. My family worries about me. But I am changed. I am forever changed. My hope is in heaven and I'll never give that up because I've seen the light. I'VE SEEN THE LIGHT! And I know who He is. Background Information: Gender: Female Date NDE Occurred: Oct. 2020 NDE Elements: At the time of your experience, was there an associated life-threatening event? Yes Illness Illness, trauma or other condition not considered life threatening I had been very sick with Covid in October 2020. I caught it from my husband who caught it from his father. His father was in the hospital currently dying from it and we lost him shortly after my experience. My husband almost died in the hospital from Covid. He had a brief NDE in the hospital. While we were both still at home very sick, before he went into the hospital, I was trying to take care of him, I was feeling very weak and was lying on the bed and I felt so weak that I felt myself slipping away, as though I were fainting. I felt myself fainting or passing out as I was lying on the bed. There was No one there to take care of me. I was there taking care of my husband but he really needed to be in the hospital--he was sicker than I was. We were both very weak. How do you consider the content of your experience? Entirely pleasant Did you feel separated from your body? Yes I could see my husband in the den, through the walls, and my son in his room on his bed reading a book, through the walls. I could see that they were both okay. I lost awareness of my body How did your highest level of consciousness and alertness during the experience compare to your normal everyday consciousness and alertness? More consciousness and alertness than normal It was more real and vivid and the light was brighter and the colors were more vivid than normal everyday consciousness. I was more alert, my senses seemed heightened. I had different senses, spiritual senses or a spiritual ability to understand things that I couldn't do in everyday life. At what time during the experience were you at your highest level of consciousness and alertness? When I climbed off the bed and my feet didn't touch the floor until I woke up on my bed again. During the entire experience I was in my highest level of consciousness and alertness. Before and after the event, I have a more difficult time remembering details. But during the event was more real. Were your thoughts speeded up? Faster than usual Did time seem to speed up or slow down? Everything seemed to be happening at once; or time stopped or lost all meaning There was No time. Once I slipped into this realm time stopped. When I think back on the events it was not really in a definite chronological sequence like I want it to be. Events are stacked and it is so frustrating to remember them because I have to unstack them. So much happened all at once. When I went around the corner and the curtain opened I saw the creatures crouching, the angel in front of me, the angels behind him, the saints before me, the tree in the distance, the light bathing everything, the young woman coming up to me, meeting with Jesus, seemingly all at once. I could see everything all at once. Were your senses More vivid than usual? More vivid than usual Please compare your vision during the experience to your everyday vision that you had immediately prior to the time of the experience. One thing that was different was that I was able to see with my left eye. I had lost my vision in my left eye in 2012 but I was able to see and see with peripheral vision with my left eye. Actually, my peripheral vision was awesome during the experience as I could see almost all the way around me. I could see everything except directly behind me. I could see through walls and the ceiling. I could see outside. The landscape was different. It went on forever, seemingly. It was light and bright but it was actually dark/night. Please compare your hearing during the experience to your everyday hearing that you had immediately prior to the time of the experience. I heard the angel and Jesus talk to me or communicate to me differently than in my everyday life. We communicated with our thoughts somehow. Did you seem to be aware of things going on elsewhere? No Did you pass into or through a tunnel? No Did you see any beings in your experience? I actually saw them Did you encounter or become aware of any deceased (or alive) beings? Yes There was a very large group of people. They were called saints and they were all very special people. They were wearing these beautiful robes. Something about the robes showed that they were special people and that they belonged to the king and that they dwelled with him in heaven. They knew me and they loved me and I was very special to them. They were there watching the events that were going on right then but they were peacefully watching not actively watching. Other than one small young woman who had light brown curls. She came up to me and I knew her and I wanted it to be Mimi but I wasn't sure because she didn't look like Mimi did when I knew her. Of course, I didn't know my Mimi when she was a young girl like that. But she took my hands and her hands were familiar but they were also not familiar because they were so young. I just don't know if it was her but I really, really want it to have been her. I loved my grandmother so much and I miss her so much. She was at one time my very special and favorite person. We had such a close relationship. I think it must have been her but I am just not sure and I don't want to force something to be so if I am not sure. She passed away in 2002. Did you see, or feel surrounded by, a brilliant light? A light clearly of mystical or other-worldly origin Did you see an unearthly light? Yes The light was white and golden and pure all at the same time. It was in everything and everyone. It was alive and glowing and iridescent. It was Heavenly Father and it was called Glory. I love that light. I didn't want to leave it and I still search for it always. I crave being in the light and I can't wait for the day when I can be in it again. Did you seem to enter some other, unearthly world? A clearly mystical or unearthly realm This was another realm. This wasn't 'heaven'. At first I thought my eye was 'pealing back' and I was able to see into another realm which was actually right here alongside this realm. But I think it was more like there was this curtain or veil that was pulled back that I slipped into and it pealed back from the right to the left. It was like I could see a sliver at first and then slowly it opened or pealed back. At first it was like looking through a dragonfly's wing. It looked so beautiful and iridescent. The walls that were once there in my house just disappeared. And the roof did too. And I could see the light but there were shadows where the crouching creatures were. My husband was in the den and he was in the shadows still. But my son was in his room and the walls in his room were gone and he was bathed in the light but he was oblivious to what was happening. This was a 'spiritual realm' and it was right there with the 'physical/earthly realm' but I could see parts of the earthly realm too. Only the spiritual realm overtook some of the earthly realm. Like when the walls disappeared. The outside wall of the house disappeared and I could see the landscape went on and on and on and the people 'saints' were standing inside my house and outside my house in the landscape. It was light from the Father's light in the spiritual realm but it was dark in the physical realm. What emotions did you feel during the experience? Love and peace and joy. Overflowing of love. Unconditional love. I was still worried about my husband, though, because he was so sick and I knew that I needed to take care of him. Did you have a feeling of peace or pleasantness? Incredible peace or pleasantness Did you have a feeling of joy? Incredible joy Did you feel a sense of harmony or unity with the universe? No Did you suddenly seem to understand everything? No Did scenes from your past come back to you? No Did scenes from the future come to you? No Did you come to a border or point of No return? I came to a definite conscious decision to return to life I was so concerned for my husband because he was very sick and I had been the one taking care of him. I was worried for him and for my family. God, Spiritual and Religion: What was your religion prior to your experience? Christian- Other Christian I am a Christian and I've been following Jesus since I was a little girl. I've always had a love for God and Jesus and I thought I had a close relationship with them. But then I had my experience and everything changed. I now see things so much clearer. I understand in ways I never did before. The closeness and the love is amazing and pure and true. I've seen them and I know. It's not just faith anymore--it's sight. My background was of more strictness and more judging and more negatives but all of that has lifted from my shoulders. Those burdens are gone. If we love, as we are loved (and we are so loved) then I don't even need to think about those things at all. My background didn't have enough 'love'. Have your religious practices changed since your experience? Yes I am more spiritually minded. I am closer to Heavenly Father and Jesus. What is your religion now? Christian- Other Christian I am a follower of Jesus and I dwell in Heavenly Father's light. He is the Father of Glory and it is all around me. Their love is great and I felt it all the way down to the hidden parts of my soul. I know what unconditional love is. I felt it. I know it. I love. That's a verb. And it's a noun. And it's real and it's true. I love--people, animals, the creation. That's why I'm here. It's why we are all here. To love and to be kind. To find joy. All of the good things should be ours. We can be walking in this amazing light if we just break free from these shackles and strongholds on us. Walk in love. That's my current religious background. I love and that love is Heavenly Father's love and it's reflected in Jesus. I saw it and I walked in it. It was in everything. Did your experience include features consistent with your earthly beliefs? Content that was both consistent and not consistent with the beliefs you had at the time of your experience The experience surprised me--that I had the experience surprised me. I was in shock for a while and had a difficult time coming to terms with it. I am a spiritual person and maybe I shouldn't have had a difficult time with it but it was just so far out there for me and it was so real, more real than real life. It was realer than real life. I was brought up believing that those things were considered 'miracles' and didn't happen anymore. I think I just misunderstood so many things. I went back and reread passages in the scriptures about what Paul experienced and John and the prophets and I couldn't discount my own experience. It happened. It didn't go away. It was with me every day, every minute of every day. It was more real than any dream or memory. More vivid. I never forgot anything about it. I actually remembered things in more detail as time went on and I was able to process the events that happened on top of each other. Did you have a change in your values and beliefs because of your experience? Yes Things that mattered to me before don't really matter to me now. I used to be worried about finances or big decisions in life, politics, world events. But so many things are seen through a different filter now. Did you seem to encounter a mystical being or presence, or hear an unidentifiable voice? I encountered a definite being, or a voice clearly of mystical or unearthly origin I encountered two ugly, crouching beings that were held at bay by a group of five angelic protector angels. The angel closest to me, right behind my right shoulder, spoke to me and told me 'those are the prayers of the saints holding you up' when I first stood up from the bed and couldn't feel my feet touching the floor. He also communicated with me 'you're okay, are you okay, we are making sure you are okay' when I first saw the crouching creatures. And he looked me in the eye and had that joyful and playful look, like he knew me. I encountered my heart family. I encountered the young woman who held my hands and touched my forehead. I want it to be my Mimi but I'm not sure. And I encountered Jesus and the Father's light. Did you see deceased or religious spirits? I actually saw them Did you encounter or become aware of any beings who previously lived on earth who are described by name in religions (for example: Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, etc.)? Yes I met Jesus under a large tree. He was sitting and I was standing in front of Him. He was big and I was child size. He was holding my hands and I was talking to Him for a long time. I was telling Him so many things and He was listening. He told me it was all okay. That everything would be okay. That I needed to stop worrying and I needed to let Him carry my burdens. I was holding on to too much. I needed to be lighter. He didn't want me to carry so many burdens. My load I was carrying was too heavy. He never wants us to carry these heavy burdens. He wants us to lean on Him. He carries the burdens for us. But I had been carrying all of my burdens even though I knew Him and I was His. I remember I felt so silly about this. It was so simple but I just didn't think to let Him carry my burdens and I didn't understand how to do this. Even now I'm forgetting how to do this. During your experience, did you gain information about premortal existence? No During your experience, did you gain information about universal connection or oneness? No During your experience, did you gain information about the existence of God? Yes I saw Him. I met Him. I was in His light. He is the Father of Glory. He is Heavenly Father. His love touched me. I saw Jesus. I met Him. I spoke with Him. His hands held my hands. He loves me. I felt that love. It was the most amazing love. He looks at me and all of us as little children--His little children and he loves us so much. The songs are true and the Bible is true. I saw it and I heard it and my hands touched it and they touched me and their love touched me. I was like a little child in their presence. I will never forget that love. Concerning our Earthly lives other than Religion: During your experience, did you gain special knowledge or information about your purpose? Yes There were evil beings trying to hurt my family but there are also many more heavenly protectors taking care and protecting my family. We were walking in the light but also surrounded by shadows. During your experience, did you gain information about the meaning of life? Yes Yes! We are to love! Love each other. It sounds so simple but when you start to pay attention you begin to realize that we are more selfish than we knew. Love one another. Love yourself too. We are too hard on ourselves. And most importantly, we are to love Heavenly Father and love Jesus. They loved us first. They created us because of love. We are their little children--this is how they look at us. We are always breaking their hearts because we are selfish and we refuse to admit that they are our creators and that they are Heavenly Father and Jesus the Lord. The world makes up all kinds of excuses to try to get out of it but it is that simple. Love them and love ourselves and love each other. Stop listening to Satan and his guys. They are master of deception and liars. They walk in the shadows. Heavenly Father and Jesus are in the light. When we love we are in the light too. And that light is so beautiful. During your experience, did you gain information about an afterlife? Yes I saw and experienced Heavenly Father's light and his love. It touched my soul to the deepest, most hidden parts. It's an unconditional love. I know Him. I met Him. He dwells in heaven. I met Jesus. I saw Him. I saw angels. I met them. I have a protector angel. Maybe even five of them. I have a large group called a heart family that loves me. There is a spiritual realm filled with beautiful light and beautiful beings which all come from a heavenly place. Did you gain information about how to live our lives? Yes That we have strongholds. I learned about strongholds. These are lies that we have picked up along the way, during our lifetimes that we have carried around with us that burden us down and keep us from loving the lives we should be living. They are lies from the deceiver. He's the true enemy. They can be anything--about our weight, about our height, about money or fame, or our jobs, or about finding true love. But he knows how to put these strongholds on our hearts and lock them up tight so that we think about them all the time and there's No room for us to love, truly love. He's really good at what he does. But he's really a bad being and he's wrecking havoc on the world and on Heavenly Father's children. Jesus talked to me about some of these strongholds because I was carrying some of them around. I've gotten rid of them since my experience. It's been wonderful to be free from them. During your experience, did you gain information about life's difficulties, challenges and hardships? Yes When I first saw the crouching creatures--satan's guys. They were there in the shadows but they couldn't get to us because the angel protectors were there and they wouldn't let them touch us. The angel closest to me did tell me that 'You're okay, we're making sure you're okay'. This has shown me that even though I'm walking in the earthly life, there's things going on in the spiritual realm that I can't see. Evil forces might be out to hurt me, but I always have the protectors that are available. I need to remember that. Also, when I was talking with Jesus and telling Him all about how difficult my life had been and He was telling me that I was carrying everything and not letting Him bear my burdens really was an eye opener. My life has always been difficult. I have heavy burdens! Why haven't I given them to Him? This seems so simple but yet I just kept holding on to all of those things and kept adding to them over the years until I was really weighed down. I needed to hear that. He told me what I really needed to hear. During your experience, did you gain information about love? Yes Love is the most important thing. To truly love. Unconditional love. The love that I experienced was unlike any love that I had ever felt before. It was the love that I had been missing my entire life. It was the love that filled up that empty place inside of your soul that I had been trying to fill my entire life only I never could because No one here on this earth could ever fill it. That empty place can only be filled with the love from the one who made me--my creator. It was like the puzzle piece that was missing all of my life. He finished the puzzle and I felt love complete. The end. Take me home. That's what I felt in that moment. What life changes occurred in your life after your experience? Large changes in my life I have seen the Father's glory and I am forever changed. Right now I am a little lost as to what to do with my life. Things that mattered to me before don't matter to me anymore. I need to find a new purpose with a higher meaning. I feel a strong need to create--to write, draw, paint. I love more, much more than I did before. I love people and animals, and all of God's creation. But I long for heaven and that day when I can be in that light again. Have your relationships changed specifically because of your experience? Yes Some family members are concerned about me. I have changed. My personality has changed. Things that mattered to me before No longer matter. I am a little more 'spacier'. I sometimes lose the sense of time or forget time. I stop in my tracks over things that remind me about something from the experience. After the NDE: Was the experience difficult to express in words? Yes Words were inadequate. There were No words to match. Things that happened in that realm didn't express well in this earthly realm. How accurately do you remember the experience in comparison to other life events that occurred around the time of the experience? I remember the experience more accurately than other life events that occurred around the time of the experience I remember the events of the experience more accurately than the events that occurred around the experience. I wish I could remember the details around the experience as vividly as I do the experience. I wish I could remember what was happening the days leading up to it and after it but the events of the experience are just as vivid and memorable as though they just happened. They are so real; I can almost touch them. I remember touching the young lady's hands and her soft, brown curls. And Jesus' hands. And the light. I really can remember that light so vividly. I remember the angel and his expression and the shape of his eyes and the shape of his nose and the shape of his helmet and the color of his helmet. So many details I can remember so vividly. Do you have any psychic, non-ordinary or other special gifts after your experience that you did not have before the experience? Yes I have a much stronger sense of discernment of people. Good vs evil. Are there one or several parts of your experience that are especially meaningful or significant to you? Spending time with Jesus was so special. Standing next to him as a little child while he was holding my hands. The way he was making everything okay and lifting my burdens. He was so kind and caring and loving. Have you ever shared this experience with others? Yes I tried to tell my husband at first but he was too sick. I tried to tell him later and also my son but they both stopped me and said I had a high fever, although this happened days after my high fever. They did not believe me at first. It was months before I tried telling anyone. I slowly would try telling my sisters little things. It took a long time to finally tell someone. I've only told about six people and it's been exhausting. I think they may or may not believe me. Some of them say that they do. Others say it doesn't matter if they believe me or not, but that the experience has changed me for the batter. Did you have any knowledge of near death experience (NDE) prior to your experience? Yes a little knowledge. What did you believe about the reality of your experience shortly (days to weeks) after it happened? Experience was probably real Shortly after it happened, I was still in disbelief and very confused. It seemed so real and vivid but No one would listen to me and those who I tried to tell told me it was because I was so sick or had a high fever. So I tried to believe them. What do you believe about the reality of your experience now? Experience was definitely real I know it was real. It was real. It was more real than real. It was vivid and descriptive and I remember details about it more vividly than any dream or memory and none of my memories come close to this. My story has never changed or altered in any way. I only remember more details. At any time in your life, has anything ever reproduced any part of the experience? No Is there anything else that you would like to add about your experience? It is very difficult to have an experience like this and have No one to talk to. This is such a life altering event and it is so fragile when it first happens and is still fragile a year and a half later. It is almost like PTSD in a way. I stop in my tracks at the sight of something that reminds me of it and I can't move or go on. It has changed my life, my path, my relationships. But there's No help, No specific treatment plan, No venue or outlet. I feel so alone and in uncharted waters. I know there are groups here and there and counselors but No one can really help enough or the right way. I guess we each have to do this on our own. But I am so alone. I vacillate between wanting to talk about it all the time and not talking about it at all because people think I'm crazy. I can only hold it inside for so long before it wants to come bursting forth. And I know I will forever be 'labeled' as the lady who had the NDE. I feel lucky and unlucky at the same time. Are there any other questions that we could ask to help you communicate your experience? Questions about the after effects of the NDE. Questions about PTSD or something similar pertaining to the NDE.
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